Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 26, 2012 14:56:16 GMT
A game we were always going to find ourselves under pressure and that is how it sounded listening to the game on the radio. Our boys worked hard and stood strong and took the chance when it came but failed to stop Plymouth scoring with just 15 seconds left on the clock.
To be fair Poke was keeping us in the game with a number of fine saves in the last ten minutes. I think we might have been happy with a point from this game, but its always upsetting to let the lead slip right at the very end of the game.
Mansell being taken off on a stretcher in injury time just adds to the very disappointing end to this match.
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petef
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Post by petef on Dec 26, 2012 15:26:12 GMT
What a crazy set of stats and lucky to get away with a point by all accounts but more or less what I expected once again relying on our defense and some good luck to get something from the game.
Not at all disappointed. Yes its slightly frustrating to concede at the death but it was always on the cards and demonstrates where we are as a squad and team at this moment in time. The squad and club spirit and a willingness to work hard and for each other along with a stout and well organised defense is getting us points.
Don't knock it I much prefer this "Non Event" season to the one Bristol Rovers are having.
Even more ludicrous
Southend Played 24 Points 40 Goal dif + 18
Cheltenham Played 24 Points 40 Goal dif 0
Crazy and then Barnet go and beat Gillingham as well!
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Post by Swanny on Dec 26, 2012 15:48:52 GMT
Listening to the commentary, a draw sounded about fair. Torquay rode their luck in the first half against a strong wind and did not create anything. The second half sounded a lot better and we created a few decent chances and good old Downes put one away following a corner. It sounds like Plymouth's equaliser was a decent strike from a young debutant. Bearing in mind the number of great saves Poke made I don't think we can have too many complaints.
I think all season we've been very reliant on our defence and Poke being very solid and conceding very few. At the other end we simply do not have enough fire power to get very far this season. Add to that our injuries, suspensions, Howe's goals drying up and so wins are hard to come by. One goal too often is not enough. So in conclusion this season we've been very solid but far too limited going forward. End result...mid table at best
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2012 19:09:42 GMT
 Same old Torquay unable to see the game out and let in a goal with just 15 seconds left on the clock. But that's football, isn't it? The losing team is forced to press forward and.... ....often scores during the final minutes. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 27, 2012 8:09:22 GMT
Same old Torquay unable to see the game out and let in a goal with just 15 seconds left on the clock. But that's football, isn't it? The losing team is forced to press forward and.... ....often scores during the final minutes. Just one of those knee jerk reaction type posts Nick that get made when a goal gets scored right at the death when it looked like we were going to hold on. I do not think it was just the case of the losing side pressing forward to try and get back in the game, they had us pressed back for most of the game by the sounds of it. If we had lost the game we could not have had any real complaints as it does sound on the day Plymouth were better than us and if they had taken the chances they did create, then we would have been beaten convincingly. One wonders where we would be in the table right now if we had not dropped so many points late in games and had not drawn so many of our earlier games in the season. So in conclusion this season we've been very solid but far too limited going forward. End result...mid table at best It will be interesting to see if Martin Ling and indeed the club will be happy with a mid table finish this season. With all the off field work going on that may well have had an impact on the money available for the first team, they might well be. We might get the answer when the transfer window opens, if the club really feel we do have any chance of winning promotion this season, then we will see some new players coming in. Will the fans be happy with mid table? some will as they will look at the bigger picture, but some won't for sure. |
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on Dec 27, 2012 9:33:08 GMT
Same old Torquay unable to see the game out and let in a goal with just 15 seconds left on the clock. But that's football, isn't it? The losing team is forced to press forward and.... ....often scores during the final minutes. No matter how it's dressed up it is still bucking hard to take week-in week out  |
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petef
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Post by petef on Dec 27, 2012 11:55:09 GMT
We will soon discover whether there is any intent to launch a serious promotion push when the Jan window opens. My guess is that we will see little activity, maybe the odd signing to cover our injuries but no serious ambitious signings.
Could any honestly see this current squad competing in a league above?
If you look at our squad in depth and value terms compared with the likes of Rotherham and Bradford we are massively over achieving.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2012 12:21:23 GMT
No matter how it's dressed up it is still bucking hard to take week-in week out Bucking hard indeed, Phil, but - for whatever reason - we've spent fair chunks of recent away games defending. Bradford was a pisser because we - as supporters (well me, anyway) - had got to that point when we thought we were going to pull it off. Whether that was insightful observation on my behalf - or simple wishful thinking - remains to be seen. But, objectively, Bradford had battered us and we did bloody well to keep them out until then. If we'd not done as well - and, say, conceded in the 55th minute - we wouldn't have been so disappointed. That's the paradox, isn't it? I didn't see Northampton so can't comment. But perhaps the late goals are the frustration - and the consequence - whilst the debate should be more about our lack of wherewithal in scoring more goals of our own. Or is it the case that we're simply an average team - something I'm not losing much sleep over - and that our games pretty typically reflect that? Moving away from Phil's post, and making a wider point, we'd all admit that football is as frustrating as it is compelling. For certain it doesn't always seem as if things go your way. But, you know - when all things are considered - life is no more fairer or unfairer to Torquay United than any other team. Nor do I get this stuff about "these things always happen to us in particular" be it late goals, dodgy referees, cheating opponents or the injustice meted out by the Gods of Football. In my humble opinion that's a pile of shite. But if, like religion and ritual, it gives comfort to people then so be it. And, maybe too, when you challenge these things you endanger the whole curious mythology that has grown up around the game that we unthinkingly accept as the Gospel Truth. Like Derby games often ending up as tight, evenly-contested affairs..... Just one of those knee jerk reaction type posts Nick that get made when a goal gets scored right at the death when it looked like we were going to hold on. I do not think it was just the case of the losing side pressing forward to try and get back in the game, they had us pressed back for most of the game by the sounds of it. And Dave's reaction sums up how we often feel when a goal is conceded after so much successful defending (see Bradford above). Dave is also correct in saying that Argyle had done so much attacking in the first half and a still reasonable amount in the second half when we played so much better. It wasn't a case of them only attacking in the final minutes and us suddenly "wilting". After a shaky start we'd defended well. The problem is that we like to think that if we've done something - anything - well for eighty-nine minutes we need to foul up badly not to continue doing so for the next four minutes. Surely "seeing out time" will be routine? I bet we've all thought like that watching games such as yesterday's. It's straightforward old-fashioned reassurance. Unfortunately we tend to forget that a football team's defence may have needed to perform supremely well to keep a clean sheet. It may also have benefited from the ineptitude of the opposition as well as enjoying luck. And, if it remains "under the cosh", there is a chance a goal will come however late. Should it do, it's not necessarily due to any particular shortcoming. There may be a mistake but that's not the only way goals are conceded. To use the old cliche "it only takes a second....." The main - and obvious - point that needs to be emphasised is that it is not unusual for goals to be scored late in games. It has been forever thus. I'd appreciate seeing more statistics as I've only been able to find a few relating to the Premier League on the Soccerstats.com site. These segment each ninety-minute match into six fifteen-minute periods: 0-15; 16-30, etc. The weakness in this, of course, is that the 31-45 and 76-90 periods include stoppage time. If we say that, typically, that's a minute in the first half - and three in the second half - we need to make certain adjustments. And, for those final stages of the game (when we tend to notice these things rather more), we could do with further detail about 85-90; 90+, etc. Nor do we know the proportional importance of those goals: winners, equalisers, losers, consolations or tally boosters? But those Premier League figures consistently show more goals being scored in the 76-90 minute period than any other. As spectators we'd probably agree that's for the good until it adversely affects our team. All this suggests to me is that games don't become significantly tighter as the final whistle approaches. If that was the case I could understand the current trend to lambast teams who concede late: "we couldn't see the game out"; "we lacked concentration"; "we were unprofessional". That all seems too simplistic to me and wholly ignoring the efforts of the other team. On occasions, of course, such analysis may be accurate (and, even when it's debatable, it will be voiced by managers because they say things like that anyway). And, naturally, it can be galling if it happens more than once in quick succession. But all this "unprofessional" and "concentration" business strikes me as too much of a modern football cliche. That is when it involves your team. Watch a game on the telly, as a neutral, and it seems a simple case of games having a different pace and frenzy in the closing stages when players are tiring, the result remains in doubt and the tension and atmosphere mounts. Another example of that age-old "name of the game" stuff that invariably remains true in our rush to blame, explain and become aggrieved about the injustice of it all. What isn't so normal is precisely what happened so many times last season when our opponents didn't score late in the game. Partly good fortune; but also to the credit of last season's team. But still unusual and noteworthy nonetheless. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2012 13:45:17 GMT
Times of goals scored in the top 4 divisions yesterday:
0-10 mins 10
10-20 12
20-30 12
30-40 11
40-50 10
50-60 15
60-70 14
70-80 13
80-90+ 18
These statistics tend to support Barton's point, especially since 7 of those 18 at the end were recorded as being scored after 90 minutes. All of them except Davide Somma's consolation effort for Leeds were, in some way, decisive.
Torquay have conceded late goals in the last three matches but that's probably just a statistical blip. In the last game I watched which did not involve Torquay two goals after 90 minutes turned Sheffield United's looming defeat against Port Vale into a 2-1 win while earlier in the season Barton and I saw Chesterfield equalise in injury time against Rochdale. Maybe on Saturday it will be Torquay's turn to bag a late goal, in which case no doubt some Aldershot fans will be saying "We've gone and thrown it away again!"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2012 16:13:07 GMT
Interesting statistics, Wildebeeste.
I think it's almost become a belief that a "professional team" should be able to kill off a game and see out time. The only problem is that, as with so many of these statements, the opponents are also professional footballers. Lesson one in football: there are two teams.
I'd also imagine that conditions on the day make "killing the game" proportionately more difficult or easier. Yesterday, remember, was a dire afternoon.
So, overall, as these figures are starting to show, it's not as easy as the new orthodoxy suggests.
There's also the business of how we now regard the goals that our teams concede. A result of defensive frailty, fine attacking play or something that is neither here or there but just a routine goal?
My belief is that, in the early days of football, people mainly thought in terms of scoring goals. Then they started to appreciate the importance - albeit still secondary - of not conceding. I dare say spectators lagged behind participants in this way of thinking until the penny eventually dropped. Certainly, by the time I was taught to read league tables as a child, one of the tricks was to spot who was conceding the fewest goals and losing the least games. By no means infallible but a useful guide.
But I'm sure there was always a gap between what players and coaches saw as "preventable goals" and what spectators thought of as otherwise. Had we conceded a late goal on Boxing Day 1952 - I've no records at hand to check if we did - I'm sure old Eric Webber would have told his players that they should have bloody stopped it. The fans, meanwhile, may have been more accommodating in accepting it as an Act of Providence even though they probably threw down their bobble hats and rattles in disgust at the time.
By Boxing Day 1965 young Frank O'Farrell would have probably held a full-on inquest and bemoaned the players' sloppiness in conceding such a late goal. The punters may have been slightly less forgiving than in the previous decade but they possibly wouldn't yet have been at the "lack of professionalism" stage.
But now it's different. We're better informed, more tactically aware and more exposed to analysis and post-match "quotes". In short we're more in tune with the defensive side of the game than our forebears. And you can be sure that a fair share of those Act of Providence goals will now be seen as "preventable" in the car and coach after the game. That's part too of us now wanting to be football managers and journalists as much as we our fans. Certainly, if you're reaching for the keyboard after the game, it's more attention-grabbing to analyse that goal - and sometimes proportion blame - as opposed to just saying it happened.
I guess, as I've hinted before, I've got mixed feelings about all of this. You can't knock more information, explanation, analysis and awareness. But the football fan is a peculiar kind of beast. Give him these new tools when he's watching Barcelona v Real Madrid and he'll probably be more objective and insightful than he's ever been. Watching his own team - armed with newly-endowed knowledge and the means to share it - and he might well become a tad more subjective, selective, opinionated and biased.
Just as you'd expect. Keep taking the forums, folks, and a happy new year to you all.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 28, 2012 9:31:56 GMT
A couple of well written and thought provoking posts made on this thread by Barton Downs. I do not normally make those knee jerk reaction type posts, but I did on this thread and I think I now know why that was the case. When I learned how the team was lined up it did seem to me a very more attack minded line-up and yet it was all Plymouth in the first half and the score only stayed at nil nil due to what sounded like poor finishing and a certain amount of luck
I think any expectations I may have had of Torquay winning the game were sinking by the minute, so when we did go and take the lead it was such a high and one higher then when we so often score first in other games. While Plymouth were still having a good go at us, due to how well we had coped in defence, I just wrongly expected us to hold out until the final whistle. Having seen the goals yesterday and not wishing to blame anyone especially Poke who made a number of fine saves, their goal looked a little soft to me as it was taken from the edge of the box and did not seem to have that much power in it.
I do not find it surprising that more goals get scored late in games than in any other period during the game, yes players tire and so often one team is pressing hard to try and get something out of the game. But then so often the team that is in front, sit back and try to soak up the pressure and I have always felt that was fatal as the law of averages says if you let teams keep on getting shots at your goal, one will go in at the end.
When a team keeps letting in late goals can that really be put down to bad luck? Or is there a reason why that keeps happening? They always say the mark of a good team is one that can see the game out and not let it slip away at the death and the very best teams do seem to able to do that. I have watched enough football during my life to believe one of the problems is that teams holding on to a slender lead, just try and hold onto in and end up being camped in their own half. As I said above if a team does that then even the very best ones run the risk of finally getting broken down with the result the other team gets the goal they were looking for.
What has always fascinated me is how the mentality of a football team can change during a 90 minute period, I will do my best to try and explain what I mean. You can watch a game where one team seems full of confidence, every thing they do seems to come off while the other team look clueless and can’t even seem to sting any passes together. But then in some games( not all mind you) something happens and that poor looking team suddenly looks the best team out on the park while the other team goes backwards. I’m not sure but I think so much of what happens and how well a team plays in any part of a game, comes down to the players mentality at any given point in the game. Confidence can grow during a game for sure and real believeth can creep into the players the longer any game goes on.
It is the manager’s job to try and install that believeth into the players before they take to the field, but we have all seem times when our team was at the bottom of the table, when that early goal went in and heads dropped and players reacted like they were already beaten. How many times have we heard it said as soon as the team gets one win under its belt, the tide will turn and yes it so often does as a win can sure restore and build confidence and any believeth that might have been missing.
I have watched games where we were the better team and took a well deserved lead, but then for some reason seemed the change the way we were playing. How many times have I said to myself why is the team not still doing what it was as that is what gave them the lead in the first place. It all seems so simple. Keep doing what was good that got you in front and more goals will surely come.
But then as Barton has pointed out, there are two teams out on the pitch and it might just simply be the case we can no longer play the way we were playing as the other team now finding they are a goal behind, has upped their game stopping us being able to play our game they way we were.
We know as fans the emotions we go through during any game, from hope to despair, to feeling we are beaten to that wonderful winning feeling, I’m sure during any game players also go through a number of emotions from feeling beaten, to finding that mentality that says we are not going to lay down and die and we are going to fight hard to try and turn this game around.
When we do see that sort of fighting sprit from our team, we can often not end up so disappointed if we did not win the match, its effort, hard work and at least the will to win that will win fans over time and time again as no one expects Torquay United to have the pick of the very best players in this league.
We know that luck does play a part in this game, but can we just say a team is unlucky as it keeps letting in late goals? Is any one team more unlucky than any other team? It can so often seem that way, its something we see in life everyday. I’m sure we all know someone who seems to always be lucky while other we might know never seem to get any luck at all in their life. I’m sure some would say it’s just no more than the hand that person was dealt, I have sure learned just playing poker recently it comes down mostly in the end if you win or not, based on just the cards you are dealt and what comes out on the flop.
If during the game we hit the woodwork four or five times we say we were unlucky, is that really the case? Not in my book as all that happened was the players did not get the ball correctly on target and that is why the ball did not hit the back of the net. We also say how we rode our luck when the other team who has us pinned in our own half failed to score. But as was the case in the Plymouth game that mostly came down to some very poor finishing and nothing more, did that them make us lucky?
Yes luck does play its part at times, we have all seem those defected goals go in, a shot going to wide that hit another player and with the keeper going the other way, hit the back of the net. One would think that over the course of any season luck would balance itself out. But that is not always going to be the case and there will be some seasons when a team seems to be getting no luck at all, but that is not something I think could happen season after season.
The players are just human like we are; I’m sure we have all bemoaned our bad luck at times, had times when we felt we were always the victims and had far more of our share of bad luck. Its how we deal with it that matters, we can just carry on moaning about it, or do something to try and change it. In life we have to just try and deal with it and put it behind us as soon as we can, stay positive and believe things will get better in time.
If its gut wrenching for us as fans when that ball hits the back of the net, just how must our players feel when those late goals keep going in? do they just bemoan their luck? I would hope not and also not let in play on their minds too much. It’s just something that seems to be happening a bit more in recent games, but its something that will change of that I’m sure.
Its all just a part of how this game plays out, we have had runs where we could not buy a win, we have had record winning runs, record runs where no one could put a goal past us and runs where the keeper spent most of his time picking the ball out of the back of the net. Rene Howe was scoring in every game, now can’t seem to score no matter how much he tries. This is just football, such things have happened since the day the very first ball was ever kicked and will continue to happen as long as the game is played.
Its what makes it such an interesting game to follow, it gives us so much to talk about and I’m sure we would not want it any other way.
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Post by ajaxgull on Dec 28, 2012 12:33:45 GMT
We could hardly get out of our half in the first 45 minutes thanks to the gale force winds blowing that balloon sometimes called a ball right back at us. It was also why when Plymouth had a shot at goal most of the time it nearly cleared the stand. I did wonder at one point if I was at Plymouth Albions ground !!
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Post by milber on Dec 29, 2012 16:27:38 GMT
Back from Crimbo in Debn.
Just a few thoughts from our trip to HP.
From the away end the wind was sweeping rain from left to right and it swirled around and across the away end.
It was awful conditions for a game of footie.
First half was completely devoid of any quality apart from a save by Poke at full stretch tipping it around for a corner and an amazing block in the 6yrd box which stopped a certain PA goal. (apologies to whoever it was, but I can`t remember.)
PA had all the pressure but were completely unable to adapt to the wind and were guilty of over hitting passes, crosses and corners.
We were very lucky that PA were so poor at finishing.
Whilst the back 5 looked solid, I did feel that the midfield offered little protection. time and again PA were able to sit 2 players unmarked on the edge of the box waiting for the ball to break.
Then when the ball fell to PA we were very slow to close them down allowing runs at goal and shots which should have been avoided.
Was not that impressed by the shift put in by Easton. I guess to be fair though he was brought in as a sub and has been forced to be a starter due to injuries.
2nd half started brightly for us but soon fizzled out into PA forcing the pressure which was very disapointing given we now had the wind at our backs.
Nothing to inspire the crowd into creating a noise until the last 15-20 mins.
Sadly Bodin looks a player out of sorts and lacking any confidence. his touch let him down and he had little impact on the game.
Overall we didn`t look threatening as a team and I could see why we don`t score many goals.
Howe looks frustrated and was constantly pushing defenders in the back. Even I got fed up of all the long balls hoping for flick ons.
Was hoping to see the ball worked on the ground and a pull back for a late run from midfield. But we seemed unable to create any openings.
Overall can`t be too disapointed with the late goal, even though it is a worrying habit of late. We didn`t deserve to win and sad to say PA had far more desire and energy about them. They could easily have won 5-1 with better finishing.
Still if we are still only 3 pts off the play offs when the injuries clear up who knows. but at the moment we don`t appear to have the quality going forward to win games consistently enough to get into the top 7.
milber
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 18:42:53 GMT
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Dec 30, 2012 19:50:41 GMT
Don't know if this was apparent watching, but we were listening to the game on the radio and it sounded as if as soon as we scored, we just stopped playing and sat deep, inviting Plymouth to come onto us, and from that moment on it was almost inevitable that we were going to concede. Regardless of whether or not teams should be expected to see out games, that's a pretty stupid thing to do, especially considering we'd done exactly the same thing against Northampton
That's worrying - the last thing we need is to develop that kind of mentality again given that we're hardly scoring as it is. For a while we stopped conceding late equalisers or late winners - certainly under Ling but also under Buckle to an extent. I remember back in the later Leroy days through Cornforth, Atkins, Kubik and Curle it seemed to be happening every other week - barely a trip to Plainmoor went by without the routine retreat to the edge of the box, the poor attempts at keeping the ball in the corner (hi Chris), and the cheers from the away fans and simultaneous groans from the Pop. I thought we'd beaten that
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