|
|
Post by lambethgull on Dec 15, 2012 13:01:45 GMT
Many a valid point there LG but by the same token it's all very well for people in London to expect workers in Latin America and Africa to organise themselves when the reward for doing so is as likely to be a long stretch in a prison cell or a hastily dug grave as a pay increase. You are too cynical by far about liberals and their soya lattes. What would you have people do? There ain't going to be a popular worldwide revolution because the workers would be crushed like flies. Your views are no doubt sincerely held and are always entertaining but they are an indulgence. If you believe that the workers in the Third World need to be organised then leave Lambeth behind and take yourself off to Guatemala to take part in the struggle. Otherwise all is bullshit. I wasn't saying that workers in those countries should organise, I was saying that workers improve their conditions when they do organise. More to the point, and as I alluded to above, places such as Latin America have a rich tradition of labour activism. Whilst I wouldn't claim to be a martyr or a hero, I agree very much with you that actions speak louder than words. I have organised places where I've worked and taken the hits that go with that. I just think it's very easy to be a liberal. Buy Cauldron sausages, nod at Guardian editorials and vote liberal democrat or green. There are bigger fish to fry than crusties in Totnes and Hebden Bridge though, I agree. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2012 18:41:24 GMT
I just think it's very easy to be a liberal. Buy Cauldron sausages, nod at Guardian editorials and vote liberal democrat or green. But it isn't easy to be a "liberal" if you are constantly trying to justify yourself while being attacked as a lentil-eating Guardian reader (and I write as someone who fits the stereotype perfectly) I could just as easily reply by saying it's a piece of cake being an anarcho syndicalist since you can just scoff at other people's principles while drinking with your mates down the pub (and some of my best friends are anarcho syndicalists!) Incidentally, LG, there is a world of difference between identifying oneself as a Green (undoubtedly the most radical party in modern UK politics) and a Liberal Democrat (undoubtedly not). You can't just lump everyone together like that. I agree that voting Green is likely to achieve nothing but if we all developed a greener lifestyle, cutting down on our use of finite resources, we just might make a tiny difference to the future of the planet before it's too late. The "easiest" option is simply not to care about anything. The next easiest is to care but do nowt anyway. |
|
|
|
Post by lambethgull on Dec 16, 2012 11:28:58 GMT
My problem with social democrats and greens is they either don't identify the cause of the problem (capitalism) and if they do they don't properly because they propose reforms rather than its abolition: let's have none of that nasty capitalism, we want the nicer, caring sort. Now of course, they will say that you can't go from A to B over night, so reforms are a necessary and practical way forward. My answer is that obviously things happen in stages, but until you recognise that the state and capital are two sides of the same coin you won't address the problem. This is why every Labour government follows a right-wing economic programme, why the Green Party are a joke, and why capitalists love nothing more than the idea of their opponents setting up co-ops, opting out on canal barges in Hebden Bridge or 'ethical consumers' buying 'fairtrade' chocolate and coffee. Strikes, blockades, direct action...these are the things that really terrify the capitalists, a) because they actually have an impact, but b) because the point of production is the essence and embodiment of capitalism. Labour did nothing in 13 years to reverse the Thatcher anti-strike laws, and the Green Party’s website and manifesto doesn't even mention the word strike.
So yes, I do scoff at liberals down the pub, and one of the reasons is that when push comes to shove and things need organising at work or wherever, the Guardian readers invariably go missing!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2012 15:53:07 GMT
I like your spirit, Lambeth, but you are talking shite. Do you really think you can bring down the capitalist system with a strike or blockade, even if you managed to orgaise one? Do us all a favour, lad. Who wields the power and has control of the wealth, media and weapons? The workers who took part would simply have the shit kicked out of them and be starved back to work.
Do not even think of lecturing me on the subject of labour and capital. I don't feel the need to justify myself but I shall do anyway by saying that yes, I read the Guardian and have a beard, and I eat vegetarian sausages and in the summer I sometimes wear sandals too, but I fight the class war every day that I go to work and have done so for the past 22 years. I have to deal on a daily basis with snobs, fools and bigots and I have taken enough abuse to last me a lifetime. Meanwhile, I have also been part of several strikes and attended numerous demonstrations including many which took place while you were still in short pants, and if I want to drink fair trade coffee as a matter of principle then I expect you to respect my choice.
Ask Alpine Joe whether the capitalists are quaking in their boots at the thought of your direct action. With Wednesday so close to the bottom of the table I'm sure he could do with a damn good laugh!
|
|
|
|
Post by lambethgull on Dec 16, 2012 16:28:55 GMT
I'm not seeking to deny your right to enjoy the warm glow that a mug of fairtrade coffee gives you, but respect for that decision is too much to ask if you seriously think your choice of hot beverage makes a real difference to the people who grow it. It wasn't me who made that claim and it wasn't me who said the Green Party is " the most radical party in modern UK politics" either. I don't expect a 'strike or blockade' to overthrow the capitalist system, and have never made such a claim. What I have said is that workers improve their conditions when they take collective action and when they are in control of their own struggles. You said you had no faith in social democratic trade unions, and I agreed, giving a number of examples where workers who have taken direct action have won concessions where that is the case. Those things might not make it onto a shiny package in the organics aisle in Sainsburys, but they're true nonetheless. And for the record, I've been veggie for months. Mostly due to financial reasons. A diet of lentils, beans and rice may not be revolutionary, but it is cheap  |
|
|
|
Post by gullone on Dec 16, 2012 16:59:33 GMT
I wouldnt dismiss the unions power quite so easily Wildebeest. We have a strong union membership at my place of work and you ought to see the look on the supervisors faces in the office when they realise the area reps coming up from Plymouth for a little chat ! I have found the union fees to be worth every penny over the years and i would encourage anyone thats not in their workplace union to join, money well spent.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2012 17:10:31 GMT
I have been a union member since Lambeth Gull was in his nappy, gullone. I just don't think that the unions carry much weight now compared to the past, that's all. And that's the end of this thread for me. Poor Timbo began it with some very nice photos of Holmfirth and it has degenerated into a boring spat beween an old hippie leftie and a cheeky young swine who I can no longer be arsed to debate with. Sorry, everybody, and a happy solstice to all |
|
|
|
Post by lambethgull on Dec 16, 2012 17:41:59 GMT
I have been a union member since Lambeth Gull was in his nappy, gullone. I just don't think that the unions carry much weight now compared to the past, that's all. And that's the end of this thread for me. Poor Timbo began it with some very nice photos of Holmfirth and it has degenerated into a boring spat beween an old hippie leftie and a cheeky young swine who I can no longer be arsed to debate with. Sorry, everybody, and a happy solstice to all I've been reliably informed that they were Terrys nappies, so at least that's something  As someone who left school for the factory floor at 18, I think I've earned the right to hold and express an opinion on these matters. I've no doubt you have insights and experience I lack but I wasn't trying to 'lecture' you on labour and capital, just setting out my position. However, as someone who is approaching his 31st birthday, I'm very happy to be called young...even if it is accompanied by a string of less favourable descriptions |
|
Dave
TFF member
Posts: 13,081
|
Post by Dave on Dec 16, 2012 17:57:58 GMT
Well this thread has sure gone off topic  not to worry as its not anything we get to excited about here on the TFF. I do not do politics and have little understanding about it, but i do have some views on trade unions. I was forced to join one when I was very young, to be fair the arguments why I should were good, if I wanted to enjoy the benefits a union could bring, I should belong to it. At Toolfix there are only five of us and two of those are bosses, so its unlikely we three workers could ever have any real power we could use to force any changes. If I'm honest some of the strikes that have taken place over the last five years has angered me. Workers on money people like me could only dream about demanding more and at a time so many others have lost their jobs. For so many the powers and now switched back to the bosses as people just feel lucky to even have a job and while I'm not a lover of trade unions, I do fear we are in danger of going backwards with workers losing many of their rights etc that were fought hard for. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2012 18:07:54 GMT
And that's the end of this thread for me. Poor Timbo began it with some very nice photos of Holmfirth and it has degenerated into a boring spat beween an old hippie leftie and a cheeky young swine who I can no longer be arsed to debate with. Is there still time for me to show you my Christmas card from Cleggy? And after all I've said about him......   |
|
Jon
Admin
Posts: 6,912
|
Post by Jon on Dec 16, 2012 19:13:46 GMT
A diet of lentils, beans and rice Lambie, Please do not stand upwind from me next time you are on the Pop. |
|
Jon
Admin
Posts: 6,912
|
Post by Jon on Dec 16, 2012 20:03:55 GMT
Is there still time for me to show you my Christmas card from Cleggy? Did you get one from Paul Compton? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2012 22:25:36 GMT
wildebeeste It's been estimated that the global workforce available to the big companies has doubled in the last 20 years. The opening up of Eastern Europe, Asia, India, etc, plus other emerging markets ,advances in container transportation, means that there are plenty of alternatives if you don't want to put up with bolshie workers. A militant workforce will only encourage investment and manufacturing to be switched elsewhere, even if those militants do achieve a few short term gains. The largest problem though is big Government. A capitalist system would soon find a way round the RMT and Bob Crow. Transport for London and various other Government agencies will always happily negotiate away other peoples money. While the Government is manipulating and controlling the money supply, setting the interest rates, rigging wages by means of the minimum wage etc, you will not see many of the benefits that capitalism could supply if it were allowed to function properly. I don't think capitalists have much option other than to take a back seat while Western Governments spend the next decade or more pursuing their Keynesian experiments. When things get really bad, as they inevitably will, we will see whether the workers of the world can unite and overthrow their Social Democrat masters. The EU Army will be much more of a reality soon, and able to crush uprisings whether they be in Spain, Greece or Britain. Obama realises his money printing will bring about the same end result in the US and so any chance to push the case to disarm the citizens in advance will be seized upon. And as for Wednesday  .... they won't thrive if they rely solely on the cash the working class hand in at the turnstile once a fortnight. Thankfully that great global capitalist Milan Mandaric has not only overseen promotion, but will no doubt reach into his own pocket again to strengthen the squad in January thereby ensuring Championship level football at Hillsborough. (Milan's Wiki) What a privilege it is to have great entrepreneurs such as Mr. Mandaric in Britain. Think of the many many jobs he had created in Yugoslavia and in the US, and the vast sums in tax he will have paid. Yet our greedy Government will drive away the Manadric's of tomorrow when they invent trumped up charges of tax evasion. Yugoslavian socialism drove him away but the scandalous claims of the British State to rob him further were rightly thrown out by the Courts. As for Fairtrade Coffee, well I'm no more likely to drink a cup of that stuff than I am to decide a day trip to Totnes would be pleasant. It seems to make a few British consumers feel happier when they see a Fairtrade label on a coffee jar, but it's no practical use to the coffee growers who would benefit much more if we could help them get Government off their backs and let capitalism flourish rather than perpetuate the Fairtrade myth. blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alexsingleton/4019311/The_poverty_of_Fairtrade_coffee/PEACE AT CHRISTMAS  |
|
|
|
Post by lambethgull on Dec 17, 2012 10:43:00 GMT
Before Alpine Joe gets too misty eyed about the wonders of capitalism, let's remember what Adam Smith said about government: In other words, the rich require government, and government is a creation of the the rich. So whilst one can rightly oppose totalitarian governments who would replace thousands of exploiters with one - the state - let's not be under any illusions here. Joe rightly points out that capital is constantly in search of new markets, including cheaper labour markets. He correctly identifies the flight of capital from the West to the East as it seeks cheaper sites of production. What he seems to be ignoring however is that labour militancy follows capital wherever it goes. The autoworker strikes in Europe in 70s were preceded by strikes and unrest in the US. When firms relocated production to South Korea, Mexico, South Africa and Brazil, waves of strikes resulted there. And China, the world's main source of cheap labour has been undergoing waves of strikes and unrest since the 90s, and it grows every year. With production costs rising in China, it seems reasonable to ask where the next 'China' is going to be. The crisis caused by that question will shape the rest of the century and beyond. Anarcho-syndicalist greetings to all during the festive season: Viva la FAI y la CNT, luchemos hermanos contra los tiranos y los requetés.
Rojo pendón, negro color, luchemos hermanos ante la batalla debamos morir.
En los tiempos de Rivera y Torquemada,
los fascistas nos querían matar,
aliados con naciones extranjeras
como Italia, Alemania y Portugal.
Empezaremos con el trono
y acabaremos con el clero
que es el animal mas fiero
al servicio del poder. FAI. FAI. Si los curas y Frailes supieran, la paliza que van a llevar, se irian al pueblo gritando, libertad libertad libertad |
|
|
|
Post by stuartB on Dec 17, 2012 11:23:24 GMT
Before Alpine Joe gets too misty eyed about the wonders of capitalism, let's remember what Adam Smith said about government: In other words, the rich require government, and government is a creation of the the rich. So whilst one can rightly oppose totalitarian governments who would replace thousands of exploiters with one - the state - let's not be under any illusions here. Joe rightly points out that capital is constantly in search of new markets, including cheaper labour markets. He correctly identifies the flight of capital from the West to the East as it seeks cheaper sites of production. What he seems to be ignoring however is that labour militancy follows capital wherever it goes. The autoworker strikes in Europe in 70s were preceded by strikes and unrest in the US. When firms relocated production to South Korea, Mexico, South Africa and Brazil, waves of strikes resulted there. And China, the world's main source of cheap labour has been undergoing waves of strikes and unrest since the 90s, and it grows every year. With production costs rising in China, it seems reasonable to ask where the next 'China' is going to be. The crisis caused by that question will shape the rest of the century and beyond. Anarcho-syndicalist greetings to all during the festive season: Viva la FAI y la CNT, luchemos hermanos contra los tiranos y los requetés.
Rojo pendón, negro color, luchemos hermanos ante la batalla debamos morir.
En los tiempos de Rivera y Torquemada,
los fascistas nos querían matar,
aliados con naciones extranjeras
como Italia, Alemania y Portugal.
Empezaremos con el trono
y acabaremos con el clero
que es el animal mas fiero
al servicio del poder. FAI. FAI. Si los curas y Frailes supieran, la paliza que van a llevar, se irian al pueblo gritando, libertad libertad libertadi thought Adam Smith was an excellent left back from Spurs |
|
.... they won't thrive if they rely solely on the cash the working class hand in at the turnstile once a fortnight. Thankfully that great global capitalist Milan Mandaric has not only overseen promotion, but will no doubt reach into his own pocket again to strengthen the squad in January thereby ensuring Championship level football at Hillsborough.