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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2010 20:24:29 GMT
You'll remember the 2008 SW Challenge Cup in which we reached the final after being reinstated when another team withdrew. You may also recall last year’s contretemps between Grimsby and Luton which was resolved by inviting the hapless RRFC Montegnee to contest the final on the basis that all the rest had gone home. Well, this year Doncaster Rovers have kicked up a stink after the permitted substitutes rule was changed from five to three. After beating Barnstaple 10-1 on Monday, Doncaster lost 5-0 to Havant & Waterlooville at Holsworthy on Wednesday before promptly withdrawing from the competition. And, if you read the second link below, they circumvented the three subs rule by fielding an additional two subs in the shirts of players who had started the game! www.doncasterroversfc.co.uk/page/News/0,,10329~2099092,00.html www.doncasterroversfc.co.uk/page/News/0,,10329~2098828,00.html The problem is that the tournament has a group stage (two games), a semi-final and a final all to be contested between Monday and Sunday. Clubs seem happy to play a couple of games and then get on with the rest of their pre-season programme. Qualifying for the semi-finals – or even the final after winning through – is something of a poisoned chalice. Tonight it’s Blackpool v Kilmarnock at Bideford, the two biggest clubs in the competition being drawn in the same group to guarantee a game between them. It’ll be interesting to see what happens after the game. Perhaps we’ll get a chance to play in the final on Sunday without even competing in the group stages? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2010 19:44:12 GMT
Went to see Blackpool play Leyton Orient in the semi-final at Barnstaple today. A reasonable game which Blackpool won with a goal in the final minute. Not sure if they were totally elated to now be playing in the final at Bideford tomorrow. Orient, on the other hand, appeared disappointed to have lost at the last.
A feature of the game was that the three subs rule - which the organisers say was enforced upon them by "the FA" (national or county it's not clear) - had been discarded (officially or unofficially) as, by my reckoning, Orient used five subs and Blackpool six. All a bit hard to follow because the starting line-ups differed from the announcements/team sheets and numbers were being swapped about between the Blackpool players. Danny Coid of Blackpool was named man of the match but I'm not entirely sure he featured in the game.
So it's Blackpool v Shrewsbury in tomorrow's final. Well, no it isn't as Shrewsbury have now withdrawn citing "injuries" producing instead a Blackpool v Havant & Waterlooville final possibly unwanted by anyone save Havant. Oh dear, the tournament always sounds such a good idea on paper....
Footnote: after getting knocked out by Blackpool, Kilmarnock say they were promised a friendly against Ilfracombe. It was then claimed Ilfracombe decided to arrange a game against another club leaving Kilmarnock to find alternative opposition. Step forward Torrington of the North Devon League: Torrington 0 Kilmarnock 16.
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AR10
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Post by AR10 on Jul 25, 2010 12:09:15 GMT
The 3 sub rule was not forced on them by The FA or The County FA, as the organisers insisted on this being a competitive tournament rather than a friendly tournament then unfortunately The FA did insist on FA regulations of 3 subs.
This was made clear to the organisers from the outset when the rules of the competition was sanctioned.
Whether or not the organisers of the tournament relayed this info to the clubs before the tournament got underway I'll let you decide.
The only involvement the County FA had in this competition was to supply the officials.
I fear serious repercussions will follow for a breach of the 3 sub rule.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2010 14:31:15 GMT
I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be interested to learn how this works. I have to admit it's not something I've given an thought to before.
Do organisers of a tournament have the two options of choosing between a 'competitive' tornament or a 'friendly' tournament ?
If they had instead choosen the 'friendly' option how different a tournament would the spectators have witnessed...are there huge differences between the options ?
As Ant points out the only FA involvement is in sending along officials. If that hurdle could be overcome I imagine the tournament could be adapted and a common sense approach to substitutions introduced which apparantly better suited the competing teams.
Maybe the answer is to let officials work freelance during the summer so that tournaments can be staged without any F.A involvement.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2010 15:38:13 GMT
 Barton Downs succinct match report was probably good sense bearing in mind 99% have little interest in a Leyton Orient v Blackpool pre season kick about. But as Lady Alpine insists on watching Seven Brides For Seven Brothers for the umpteenth time I've decided I've endured enough Howard Keel for one afternoon & would make you all suffer as well with some of my pics from yesterday. As I walked to the ground I couldn't help thinking back to the last time I watched a team in orange shirts performing....that's right.. the World Cup final & I was hoping Blackpool wouldn't resort to the crude tactics deployed by the Dutch.  Mill Road was a new experience for me & it's a relatively neat little ground right next door to the towns rugby stadium.    A safe friendly atmosphere for the kids , with plenty of them on the pitch before & after the game & penalty kicks for them at half time.  Some necessary pre match 'adjustments'  Blackpool fans had triumphantly taken the Spion Kop end  "Dad !!! ..I can't get down"     and in goal for Blackpool we have ........not Alan Connell surely ? ?  Big Bloke isn't he ?  After losing the battle of Spion Kop the Orient fans are forced to hide in the trees at the far end......and console themselves with some foul tasting beer.  Francis Jeffers ponders how his once promising career now sees him spending a July afternoon at Mill Road Barnstaple rather than being on some exotic pre season tour with Arsenal.  Ollie & wife Kim ...pre match in the 'stand'. For anyone wishing to learn a little more of Blackpool's trip to Devon www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1296920/Ian-Holloway-exclusive-Blackpools-Devon-training-camp-hots-up.html I felt particularly sorry for the various Doncaster Rovers fans dotted about the place who just couldn't come to terms with the fact that their lads had been knocked out.  Some decent basics skills on display. I'd wager none of these youngsters have yet been coached by Noel Blake.  At last the teams emerge to the roar of the crowd. Players getting the added thrill of being introduced to Mr. John Fry of the Devon F.A who had come along specially to count the substitutions. All the match action from Mill Road coming up shortly in Part 2 |
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AR10
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Post by AR10 on Jul 25, 2010 16:25:06 GMT
As Ant points out the only FA involvement is in sending along officials. If that hurdle could be overcome I imagine the tournament could be adapted and a common sense approach to substitutions introduced which apparantly better suited the competing teams. Maybe the answer is to let officials work freelance during the summer so that tournaments can be staged without any F.A involvement. Any game of football has to be affiliated to the FA, it would be impossible for clubs, players & officials to play in a game of unaffiliated football without facing the consequences from the FA. Another interesting development on today's Final is a team having been knocked out of the competition being allowed to play in the Final. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2010 17:42:46 GMT
Thanks for that Ant. The 3 subs rule has resulted in the tournament disintegrating to some extent.
With Blackpool losing a striker with a relatively serious injury during their match against Tiverton they found themselves losing their No.9 to injury after less than 10 minutes yesterday & at the same time Brett Ormerod was hobbling.
Shrewsbury were clearly unhappy & so withdrew.
If there was really nothing the FA could do to allow a tin pot tournement to increase the number of subs allowed from 3 to 5 then fair enough.
The only reason I didn't attend today's final was because it was all becoming a bit of a joke. I'm sure like most spectators we can also see from the Managers point of view that mounting injuries from lots of games played close together just can't be permitted to go on so close to the start of the season.
The circumstances clearly showed a need for 5 subs rather than 3 & it's a pity a small tournament of insignificance can't find any way to correct the situation.
Clearly if situations arise such as this year where Managers are not happy Clubs will boycott this tournament in future & the quality of entrants will diminish.
Whether that is a price worth paying because the Organisers stupidly ticked the 'competitive'box on the entry form some months ago rather than the 'friendly' box is a matter of opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2010 17:56:44 GMT
It was announced at yesterdays semi that entry prices for todays final were £10 or £8 for OAP's.
Bearing in mind the cost of travelling to Bideford & back I decided I couldn't justify the expense.
However if I had attended I don't think my mood would have been improved by learning that in effect there was no final as Blackpool were declared winners of the Joma Cup ever before the game had kicked off !!
Havent & Waterlooville could have beaten them 6-0 but still the Cup would have been presented to Blackpool.
Also there was no mention yesterday that if you did decide to go to Bideford for the 'final' you would only get 80 minutes play.
I'm sure it's not unreasonable for people to assume that a football match will be contested over 90 minutes.
I'm assuming this all comes back to the 3 subs rule & how long the Managers are willing to make the same group of players play on consecutive days.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 25, 2010 18:00:18 GMT
Another interesting development on today's Final is a team having been knocked out of the competition being allowed to play in the Final.  But that always happens in this tin pot, seaside carnival kick about. It's about time the organisers were charged with bringing the game into disrepute and banned from holding any further embarrassments to Devon football, Ant. It is in fact the third year running sides have withdrawn and gone home rather than meet their obligations to the event, and more importantly; the public. I repeat, these clubs are taking the piss out of football and taking the piss out of the public, such contempt has never been shown in any tournament I have ever been involved with either as a participant or a spectator...................and these are so called "professionals" ~ even the concept of a Premiership side playing Western League clubs as part of it's pre-season preparation for their inaugural season in the top flight is ludicrous. Close it down!  |
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AR10
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Post by AR10 on Jul 25, 2010 18:16:21 GMT
Another interesting development on today's Final is a team having been knocked out of the competition being allowed to play in the Final. But that always happens in this tin pot, seaside carnival kick about. It's about time the organisers were charged with bringing the game into disrepute and banned from holding any further embarrassments to Devon football, Ant. It is in fact the third year running sides have withdrawn and gone home rather than meet their obligations to the event, and more importantly; the public. I repeat, these clubs are taking the piss out of football and taking the piss out of the public, such contempt has never been shown in any tournament I have ever been involved with either as a participant or a spectator...................and these are so called "professionals" ~ even the concept of a Premiership side playing Western League clubs as part of it's pre-season preparation for their inaugural season in the top flight is ludicrous. Close it down! I shall be making feelings of the paying fans known to the FA & Devon FA in my capacity as a Devon FA councilor about the way this tournament is allowed to run like this every year & you are correct Merse, It is not a good advertisement for Devon football. The organisers need to be held to task on this. Knowing the problems The FA get with this tournament I personally cannot see it being sanctioned next year. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2010 18:52:02 GMT
As I was a paying fan & Merse wasn't please convey my opinion that I thoroughly enjoyed the game I attended yesterday & hope to see the tournament back & thriving next year.
I was speaking to some local youngsters during the second half.
One of the three was old enough to drive & they have been to both Bideford & Barnstaple watching the games. They couldn't get over telling me about watching Doncaster score 10 & the qualiity of the football.
Quite frankly if you grow up in an outpost such as Barnstaple the chance to see professional footballers on your local ground is quite a treat. If you live in London there's probably lots of things going on & a decent standard of football within a student bus ride.
If this hadn't been a World Cup summer the tournament would have been an even bigger bonus while enduring the long wait for the season to start.
Naturally there might be all sorts of problems that Ant is aware of that the general football loving public of North Devon aren't aware of but to the spectators it just seems that one fundamental mistake has been made, that being the issue of the number of substitutes permitted. No manager of a professional Club involved with the tournament is happy with the number of subs.
Maybe it was a case of none of the tournament or Devon FA officials having the common sense to realise that they were setting up or sanctioning a tournament with rules which won't suit those who have kindly agreed to take part. In other words the non participants giving scant thought to what the needs of the participants might be.
It's a pity that red tape & rulebooks mean that a mistake can't be rectified once it has been identified but by the time several committee meetings have been organised to discuss the matter the tournament will have disintegrated into shambles & be over.
I'd hate for the locals of North Devon...who are already starved of virtually any decent football to watch compared to inhabitants of other areas having to miss out on what little they do get because the various suits & blazers messed up again.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 25, 2010 19:01:47 GMT
I appreciate where you're coming from Joe, but maybe that is why these clubs are choosing to use the area for it's "get away" environment and because there is a tournament with a growing track record of allowing it's participents to get away with murder. How come tournaments like the Emirates Cup permit far more subs; that is a competitive tournament surley? Or perhaps it isn't and it's just that the organisors are more streetwise.
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AR10
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Post by AR10 on Jul 25, 2010 19:03:39 GMT
The only input Devon FA had into this tournament was supplying the officials. The tournament was affiliated and the rules sanctioned directly with The FA at Wembley.
The question has to be asked is if the tournament organisers was up front with the competing clubs at the beginning of them agreeing to play in the tournament.
Maybe the clubs were not advised until they actually arrived to play in Devon and that's why Doncaster threatened to pull out of the tournament on the day of their opening game.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2010 19:16:07 GMT
 I think we should swap next Summer Merse...we'll hold the Emirates Tournament down here & you can re-name Arsenals new stadium 'Mill Road' & have Truro City & Havant & Waterlooville up with you. Merse Well from what I can gather so far it would seem that the Emirates Cup organisers remember to tick the 'friendly' box on their form each season before they send it off to the F.A to be ratified. The Joma people put their tick in the 'competitive' box and are reaping the 3 sub consequences. Whether that is the only difference between the two classifications of tournament I've yet to find out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2010 21:14:03 GMT
Whether or not the organisers of the tournament relayed this info to the clubs before the tournament got underway I'll let you decide. Thanks to Ant for putting us in the picture and to Alpine for having the good grace not to feature me in any of his pictures. More by accident than design I suspect - we've not knowingly met - but my gratitude all the same. I've highlighted Ant's most pertinent observation as I suspect that is the big question to be asked. I guess it’s a case of the infamous blame culture. A straightforward application of a regulation becomes an enforcement and we blame the usual suspects be it the FA, bumpy pitches, the council, the government, the CIA, Luton Town or whoever. And, regarding the three substitutes rule, the organisers certainly knew in time to print it in the tournament programme. Given that half the reason I attend pre-season games is to watch individual players, it was quite a challenge to track who was playing in yesterday’s match. One reason is that Blackpool seem to be blessed with several players who resemble each other and – whether the referee knew or not (and I wonder what position they were put in?) – Blackpool appeared to slip several on at half-time wearing shirts from the original 1-11 line-up. I’m deliberately using the word appeared because I wouldn’t be a reliable witness in court although, in an identity parade, I do believe I’d be able to distinguish Blackpool’s two number tens: Brett Ormerod and Jason Euell. As for today’s events, I knew nothing until I returned from Dartmoor. Alpine’s reference to the cup being awarded to Blackpool by default – and the game being reduced to eighty minutes – immediately came into the “you couldn’t make it up” category and I see where his news is coming form: www.blackpoolfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10432~2101626,00.html Interesting too that media coverage has been limited with nothing – from what I’ve seen – in the South West media save for the North Devon Journal. Incompetence or news management? Further afield, however, we mustn't forget Rowland Lyons’ exclusive Orient reports for the Yellow Advertiser (which may account for the yellow florescent jacket he always wears these days). Lastly, I sympathise with Alpine’s sentiments about the general idea of holding a pre-season tournament in North Devon. In fact I’m going to claim the idea as my own as I’m sure a staged such a competition on my Super Soccer magnetic football pitch c1964. |
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I think we should swap next Summer Merse...we'll hold the Emirates Tournament down here & you can re-name Arsenals new stadium 'Mill Road' & have Truro City & Havant & Waterlooville up with you.