Post by Jon on Feb 12, 2020 0:08:00 GMT
Not two, but one. Copied below some correspondence with the men who keep the official records at the ENFA:
I am fascinated by the "two Knapmans" who played one game in 1928 and one game in 1939. I have always been convinced these were two different players - as were Leigh Edwards and Michael Joyce - and was about to tell you you had made an error in combining them. Further digging shows you may very well be right - but I cannot find conclusive evidence. Reports in 1939 all refer to his league debut. I would love to find a contemporary reference confirming it was not his debut. Will let you know if I ever find conclusive proof one way or the other.
This is quite an important one as Knapman would have the longest ever first-team career span for a Torquay player - having played in the transitional season as late as 1946. An eighteen year career beats Tommy Northcott's seventeen.
Knapman. Here's a summary of what I found which led me to the conclusion that there was only one player.
I originally had the details from the old AFS Who's Who i.e.
Alfred Knapman, born Torquay - Torquay United 1927-28
Alfred C Knapman - Torquay United 1938-39
I then revised it in line with what was in Leigh Edwards's Definitive Torquay United i.e.
Alf Knapman, born Plymouth 1902 - Torquay United 1927-28 then Dartmouth United
AL (Len) Knapman, born Newton Abbot 18/3/1910, died 1973 - Torquay United 1938-39
Over the past several months I've been going through the details of all pre-war League players, alphabetically, to add as many missing birth and death details as I can. I've just reached W! When I was on letter K I could find no suitable birth or death record for an A Leonard Knapman, but found in the 1939 register an Alfred C Knapman, born 18/3/1910, a postman living at 136 Forest Road, Torquay. That corresponds with a birth record for Alfred Charles Knapman in the Newton Abbot district in quarter 2 1910, and a death in the Newton Abbot district in quarter 1 1983. The 1911 census gives his birthplace as Torquay.
I then found these references in the newspaper archive (I suspect that you've already seen most of this, if not all of it):
Western Morning News 13/1/1928 - A Knapman an 18 year old outside right from the Torquay Minor League to make his debut for Torquay United
Western Morning News 21/9/1931 - AC Knapman of Dartmouth United suspended as an ex-professional who had played for another club than Dartmouth.
Western Morning News 6/10/1933 - AC Knapman in Paginton Town line-up v Civil Service
Various mentions of AC Knapman or A Knapman in Paignton Town line-ups 1933-1938.
Torbay Express 14/4/1939 - Knapman the locally trained winger formerly of Paignton Town who has given many bright displays for United reserves to make debut for Torquay United.
While there is nothing among all this which specifically states that the 1927-28 Knapman and the 1938-39 Knapman were the same man, there is strong evidence in all this that there is a very high probability that they were. The only other possibilities for a second Alfred Knapman, born between 1901 and 1911 are Alfred John Knapman born Newton Abbot q4 1902 and Alfred Jeffrey Knapman born Plymouth q4 1909, but I've seen no reference to the footballer being AJ Knapman.
However if you find anything which specifically states that he wasn't the same man then please let me know, and I'll change the records. Of course if you find anything to confirm that they were the same then I'd be pleased to know that too.
It seems then that the 1939 report of Knapman making his debut is probably wrong, though it was, to be fair, rather a lengthy gap between the two appearances.
Thanks for the reply.
The TUFC handbooks of 1949 and 1965 referred to 1928 Knapman as L. Knapman - which may explain why Leigh had him down as Len - and 1939 as A.C. Knapman.
The 1931 WMN reference to A.C. as an ex-pro is pretty conclusive that the two are one - even if he did grow an inch and a half and put on one stone and five pounds between 1928 and 1939!
www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000986/19280806/101/0011
www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000329/19390728/151/0012
I am fascinated by the "two Knapmans" who played one game in 1928 and one game in 1939. I have always been convinced these were two different players - as were Leigh Edwards and Michael Joyce - and was about to tell you you had made an error in combining them. Further digging shows you may very well be right - but I cannot find conclusive evidence. Reports in 1939 all refer to his league debut. I would love to find a contemporary reference confirming it was not his debut. Will let you know if I ever find conclusive proof one way or the other.
This is quite an important one as Knapman would have the longest ever first-team career span for a Torquay player - having played in the transitional season as late as 1946. An eighteen year career beats Tommy Northcott's seventeen.
Knapman. Here's a summary of what I found which led me to the conclusion that there was only one player.
I originally had the details from the old AFS Who's Who i.e.
Alfred Knapman, born Torquay - Torquay United 1927-28
Alfred C Knapman - Torquay United 1938-39
I then revised it in line with what was in Leigh Edwards's Definitive Torquay United i.e.
Alf Knapman, born Plymouth 1902 - Torquay United 1927-28 then Dartmouth United
AL (Len) Knapman, born Newton Abbot 18/3/1910, died 1973 - Torquay United 1938-39
Over the past several months I've been going through the details of all pre-war League players, alphabetically, to add as many missing birth and death details as I can. I've just reached W! When I was on letter K I could find no suitable birth or death record for an A Leonard Knapman, but found in the 1939 register an Alfred C Knapman, born 18/3/1910, a postman living at 136 Forest Road, Torquay. That corresponds with a birth record for Alfred Charles Knapman in the Newton Abbot district in quarter 2 1910, and a death in the Newton Abbot district in quarter 1 1983. The 1911 census gives his birthplace as Torquay.
I then found these references in the newspaper archive (I suspect that you've already seen most of this, if not all of it):
Western Morning News 13/1/1928 - A Knapman an 18 year old outside right from the Torquay Minor League to make his debut for Torquay United
Western Morning News 21/9/1931 - AC Knapman of Dartmouth United suspended as an ex-professional who had played for another club than Dartmouth.
Western Morning News 6/10/1933 - AC Knapman in Paginton Town line-up v Civil Service
Various mentions of AC Knapman or A Knapman in Paignton Town line-ups 1933-1938.
Torbay Express 14/4/1939 - Knapman the locally trained winger formerly of Paignton Town who has given many bright displays for United reserves to make debut for Torquay United.
While there is nothing among all this which specifically states that the 1927-28 Knapman and the 1938-39 Knapman were the same man, there is strong evidence in all this that there is a very high probability that they were. The only other possibilities for a second Alfred Knapman, born between 1901 and 1911 are Alfred John Knapman born Newton Abbot q4 1902 and Alfred Jeffrey Knapman born Plymouth q4 1909, but I've seen no reference to the footballer being AJ Knapman.
However if you find anything which specifically states that he wasn't the same man then please let me know, and I'll change the records. Of course if you find anything to confirm that they were the same then I'd be pleased to know that too.
It seems then that the 1939 report of Knapman making his debut is probably wrong, though it was, to be fair, rather a lengthy gap between the two appearances.
Thanks for the reply.
The TUFC handbooks of 1949 and 1965 referred to 1928 Knapman as L. Knapman - which may explain why Leigh had him down as Len - and 1939 as A.C. Knapman.
The 1931 WMN reference to A.C. as an ex-pro is pretty conclusive that the two are one - even if he did grow an inch and a half and put on one stone and five pounds between 1928 and 1939!
www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000986/19280806/101/0011
www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000329/19390728/151/0012